Are you ready to transform the way you think about mergers and acquisitions? Discover the secrets to a clean exit and the revolutionary approach of conscious capitalism in this enlightening episode of M&A Masters.

Join host Patrick Stroth, an expert in executive and transactional liability, as he welcomes Sunny Vanderbeck, co-founder and managing partner of Satori Capital. Based in Dallas, Satori Capital is renowned for its multi-strategy investment firm ethos based on conscious capitalism. Sunny, the best-selling author of Selling Without Selling Out, shares invaluable insights drawn from his extensive experience in tech entrepreneurship and investment.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

• Sunny’s journey from tech entrepreneur to championing conscious capitalism.
• How conscious capitalism drives long-term success and impacts all stakeholders.
• The vital role of culture and values in driving business decisions.
• Insights into Sunny’s best-selling book and his philosophy on ethical business practices.
• Strategies for achieving a clean and strategic exit for founders and investors.

Mentioned in this episode:

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunnyv
• https://www.satoricapital.com/
• Sunny’s book on Amazon

Transcript

Patrick Stroth: Hello there. I’m Patrick Stroth, trusted authority in executive and transactional liability and founder of Rubicon M&A Insurance Services, now a proud member of the Liberty Company Insurance Broker Network. Welcome to M&A Masters where I speak with the leading experts in mergers and acquisitions, and we’re all about one thing here. That’s a clean exit for owners, founders, and their investors.

Today I’m joined by Sunny Vanderbeck, co-founder and managing partner of Satori Capital. Based in Dallas, Satori Capital is a multi-strategy investment firm founded on the principles of conscious capitalism. Sunny is also the best-selling author of Selling Without Selling Out. Sunny, it’s great to have you here today. Welcome to the podcast.

Sunny Vanderbeck: Thanks so much happy to be here.

Patrick: Now, before we get into Satori Capital and also on conscious capitalism, which is a great, great topic I want to get into, let’s start with you. Give our audience context. What brought you to this point in your career?

Sunny: Yeah, so hang on, it’s gonna be a wild ride. In my 20s, I quit Microsoft to start a tech company. Grew it very quickly, quickly enough to take it public. So I was a public company CEO for a little while. Sold that business in 2002, bought it back a year later, ran it as a private company for another four years, and then sold it for the second time in 2007.

And I had this experience with the capital markets, with you know, professional investor types that was great. A lot of the things that I thought were important, and that my co-founder here at Satori, thought were important. Crazy things like culture and people and customers didn’t seem to be a priority to much of the investment community.

So like any entrepreneur, you complain about something long enough, and you decide to go fix it. And so that was the genesis for Satori, is let’s make the investment firm, that for our mid-sized companies would have been the best fit for those companies. And so in early 2008, we started Satori Capital with this crazy idea that, you know, things like culture matter, and this idea around conscious capitalism, where maybe if I create value for customers, and employees and suppliers, first, the investment stuff works out.

Find me, the company that has thrilled customers, and is the best place to work, that investors aren’t happy. That’s not what we see. So it’s a different thing because it has a different time horizon. We started out with this as a foundational part of our strategy that we needed to have an indefinite time horizon.

Indefinite doesn’t mean we wait around for things to happen, just means we’re excited about the idea of compounding over longer periods of time. And if I can make decisions now without regard to an artificial exit, and focus on how do I create value for everybody, then we’ll make better decisions over time and get better results.

Patrick: Well, I think also with deadlines, are they artificial or is there really a point, an inflection point there? And you go with that? Can I ask you real quick about your decision, because you’re on both sides of the table here early on in your career where you were a founder and a seller, and then you turn around and you were buyer of the same target. But give me the thought process there real quick, because that’s really something.

Sunny: Yeah, the thought process wasn’t terribly complicated. So I stayed on as a business unit leader for the compliant business unit that I sold my business to. So I sold it to a strategic. And in my mind, it was clear what needed to happen next with the business. And I had a shot to go and do that. I think I probably sold it to the wrong people.

You know, that’s part of the genesis and the arc of my story is I ended up writing a book about both my own journey and a lot of other mid-sized company founders’ journeys with finding a good capital partner or selling a business.

So there were some things I didn’t do in that process that I think I should have done, and so probably didn’t get it into great hands on the first round. So there was a good bit of excitement, and not just me and my whole team. Most of them were still with me, we were chomping at the bit to have it back and make another go of it. So we did.

Patrick: A great learning experience. And then as you go forward, well let’s just transition over here to conscious capitalism because there’s the big economic theory before I read the book from Simon Sinek about how your objective is to bring great value to your shareholders and they are your top priority. And it ignores all the other stakeholders out there that you had mentioned.

You’ve got employees, you’ve got the customers. And if all you’re doing is trying to squeeze out maximum shareholder value, you’ve got a lot of bad outcomes for a lot of these other stakeholders. And this is a much more holistic approach. Can you talk about that with conscious capitalism, and then how that drives your decisions on targets, operations, things like that?

Sunny: So I’ll start with this. In no way, shape, or form is conscious capitalism, Kumbaya capitalism. This is about how to create extraordinary outcomes. And it just turns out that profit and value for investors is a lagging metric of getting other things right. Getting things right, like creating a lot of value for customers and creating a lot of value for employees, and whoever else in your stakeholder ecosystem matters to the company.

And if you approach the world with this mindset of long-term thinking and create value for others first, then downstream of it is where you see real enterprise value. The puppy chasing its tail is like a company chasing short-term profits. It doesn’t really end up anyone, you just run yourself in a circle. And again, time horizon is a big part of this.

Could one boost profits by doing short-term things? Yeah, you can for a little while. It works for a minute. Extend your time horizon out a little bit and you can create extraordinary outcomes. And so this is, I would think about this, not like an opposing system. This is a better understanding of the way the world actually works.

Patrick: Well, I think also a keyword that describes this recently would be sustainability. It’s that you can get these temporary sugar highs, but is it sustainable? And long run, particularly if you’re targeting owners and founders for acquisition to bring into Satori Capital, their perspective is going to be what’s the long-term benefit that’s going to be out there? And it sounds like that’s at your core, so you can deliver that.

Sunny: That’s right. I think not everyone thinks about the world the way we do. And that’s okay. Right. Everybody’s got their own path with their business. But for us, we think it’s really important to care about other people.

Patrick: Now, you didn’t name this Sunny Capital or Vanderbeck Capital. Where did we come up with the name Satori Capital?

Sunny: Well, I mean, first off, I have a co-founder. So he might have had something to say about me naming it Sunny Capital. So the name Satori, it took us a year and a half to find a name. Our view was like, I can hold the paradox of a name is not actually that important, just get on with your life. And it’s deeply important, it sets the tone for everything.

So we spent a year and a half with no name for the thing. And finally just searching and trying, and I still remember the day Randy sent me an email, he said, I found it. It’s this Japanese word Satori. It’s the feeling at the moment of deep enlightenment, or the aha moment itself. How perfect is that? Right, our aha moment of really understanding how does value get created? And what does extraordinary look like?

And all of these things are not the Revlon decision from 40 years ago that only one thing matters. The reality is that, no, all these things matter. They all work together. There is give and take in the relationship between all stakeholders, and extraordinary leaders can often find things that the same action creates value for multiple stakeholders.

Patrick: Well great. Now you just gave me the new parallel to epiphany. So Satori, that’s fantastic. We got to work that in now, with us. With your focus, also, you’re looking middle market, lower middle market. You’ve been around since 2008. So you’ve seen a lot out there. How come you haven’t gone up market? Talk about your commitment to where you are in the lower middle market?

Sunny: You know, I think, so for context, the vast majority of our investments will be in companies with five to 50 million of EBITDA minority or majority, it’s, let’s say it’s about two-thirds majority investment, one-third minority investment. You know, it’s funny, I hear these people say that they use the word control. And I’m like, I don’t know what you think you control, but you don’t control much at all.

So it’s a different mindset, thinking about control versus majority. So why do we work on companies this size? Because it’s fun. It’s interesting. I don’t want to shuffle paper for a living. Like oh, we can get another 11 basis points of spread and a slightly improved balance sheet and trade finance Job derivatives for a living. It’s just not inspiring or fulfilling. And more importantly, well, what good does it do in the world?

So here’s the thing. The question you didn’t ask is, why did you really do this? And what are you trying to accomplish here? Here’s what we’re trying to accomplish. If we can show through our own actions, that there is a better way to be an investor that creates more value for more stakeholders, including the investor stakeholder, and not just tell people about it, but show them, maybe we’ll get copied.

And if we get copied, that means more companies are owned by more conscious investors. The companies are more conscious, the employees get a better outcome, the customers get a better outcome, and so forth. So we’ll know we’re done when the things that make us different, are done by everybody. I hope we get copied relentlessly. Please copy us. We’ll help you.

We’ve had firms contact us and say, hey, how did you figure out how to deal with this long-term issue of like, how can you hold these companies for a longer term? We give them our legal documents. We just say here you can use them. We spent a lot of money and a lot of time trying to figure out how to make this work. We’ll just give them away because we’re trying to have the world be a better place than we left it.

Patrick: You’re thinking globally aren’t you?

Sunny: You’re expanding the community. That’s the idea. Make our differentiators irrelevant because everyone’s copied and our work is done.

Patrick: Let’s talk about, real quick, we didn’t talk about this earlier. But okay, what are some of the levers that you’re pulling. I’m thinking one of them could be with human capital, emphasis on the employees. But I think you started with, the happier your teams are, I don’t like the word workers. But the happier your teams are, the better they’re going to do. And then the happier they’re going to make the customers. Any of those types of things you can share?

Sunny: Sure. So you know that the levers are different for every business. And as a reminder, like on culture, culture is not about free bagel day, and better health care. Sometimes those things can be really important. But culture includes things like do I know what’s expected of me at work, and do I get good feedback? People want to be fulfilled. They want to know their work has meaning, and what they do every day matters, and that someone cares about them.

So the culture dimension turns out to be really important. I wanted to point out, it’s more than just well, we have, you know, free cokes on Friday and that kind of stuff. It’s a little more complicated than that. But there’s another dimension to it, and it’s how do I attract great talent to the business. Often, one of the things holding a company back is they don’t have access to talent.

We have a company that we’re working with right now that there, there’s a part of the business that they would really, really like to grow. And there are starting places we have more customers than we can supply, so we just can’t grow any faster. We have been fortunate to have a lot of time in our career on how do you build a talent pipeline.

How can you both attract new people from outside the business and how do you bring people up? How can you take somebody who’s at skill level A, bring him to A plus, and train them on a new thing? And we’ve had a number of programs, cross training has an example, inside our businesses where the business is trying to solve a problem.

And we can enhance and improve a team member’s skill set, and everybody wins. Team member gets new training, team member gets a raise, company unlocks a new skill. Everybody wins. And as you might imagine, remember the investor stuff, which is you know, that’s sort of one of our core constituents, turns out well for them, too.

So this talent pipeline, and like how do I get access to a reliable source of extraordinary people, so that I’m, if I can sell it, I actually have to deliver it. So that’s a big lever for us. And it’s common for us to be able to make a difference there. And then another one is often on the revenue side. Now, it very much depends on what kind of business they’re in. But a common thing is to see a company that could grow faster if they talked to more customers or more potential customers.

Whether they’re direct to consumer, digital, whether it’s more stores or more salespeople to help sell their b2b service. So I think we have a pretty consistent priority on how could the company grow faster, not just be capable of dealing with demand but actually creating new demand for the company as well.

Patrick: When you’re bringing on target companies, what percentage involve owners, founders that are just looking for an exit, or those that want to stay on and get that second bite of the apple? Roll some equity and then grow. What percentage would you say?

Sunny: In our case, it’s about 0% of people that are all done. And here’s why. People are like, wow, that’s different. Why? At this stage of life, many of the companies need the CEO to do more than the CEO job. CEO job, the founder job, the chairman job, marketing over here, they help keep the plant from burning down. It is extraordinarily difficult to start and grow one of these companies. I think most people have no idea how hard it is.

And that is often the state of the company along the way that you need this extraordinary human to be able to fill all these gaps and do all these jobs. And so when those folks are ready to go, and they still operate in that manner, we’re smart enough to know we’re dumb enough to not be able to fill in all those roles.

In fact, one of the things I talked about in my book is that a good place for a company, if you’re just all done, which happens, it’s a real thing, you just say I don’t want to work on this anymore. A strategic can be a good exit for you. Because strategic, they don’t like founders. And I’ve been there. Like I had a strategic buyer business.

And I learned and they learned, I’m not good at being a business unit person, because I’m really bad at saluting the flag. And good at saying what I think regardless of who’s in the meeting. And that’s not great corporate behavior. So in our business, we like to think about it as a partnership, regardless of the ownership structure itself.

And it’s funny because our relationships, when we own a minority, or we own a majority tend to look the same. We’re just partners. We’re here, we think we can make a difference for you. We’re here to help. We’re not your boss, we’re your partner. And those are so much fun. And the experience where somebody’s like, hey I’m all done.

Here are the keys. Here’s the other piece. I know, I’ve been there. I’ve been in the moment where the banker said, well, you need to say that you’ll stay for two years for a transition. And so those words come out of my mouth. I’m available for transition for two years. When a CEO says that, here’s what they mean.

Usually, I cannot wait to get out of here, but I’ll do whatever I have to do to close this deal. Okay, I just know better. If you want to go, that’s great. I’ll help you find somebody. It’s just not us. Because I’m looking for partners. That’s what we’re looking for.

Patrick: And everything you’re crafting is for growth. Who wouldn’t want to be part of that where you’re in the grind, you know it, it’s what you do. But how’d you like all the benefits and all the winning and all the joy, and you don’t have to worry about the grind anymore. That’s all taken care of. We’re gonna get you to a higher, better use. Who would say no to that?

Sunny: It happens when people have been there too long. If you probably should have exited five years ago, and now you just do it. So one of the things we don’t talk a lot about for CEOs is this idea of conscientiousness, and these CEO founders end up doing a lot of things they don’t want to do. They just need to get done.

And I’ve seen it run away for people where that stack gets just too big. And so they’ve lost their drive. One of the things to evaluate yourself, if you’re in the CEO chair, and you don’t have the drive for it, you got to figure that out sooner rather than later. And sometimes the drive gets reignited. I know of two businesses.

One, where we’re an investor and one where we’re not, where the CEO owner thought they were done. And they started to see what life looked like when they got an amazing team around them. And things started working again, all this stuff was unstuck, and the financial stress was off.

A lot of these businesses, so much of the money goes back into the business. And there were so many years of broke, even though the business is doing well, the family is broke that a little bit of liquidity can be transformative psychologically for these owners. I’ve seen some cases where people thought they were absolutely done.

And then a few things changed. And they’re like, I’m super excited and recommitted and ready to go. So that’s occasionally that will pop up, but more often than not when somebody’s done, they’re just done, and they should go to a strategic or a private equity-backed strategic, which is kind of the same thing.

Patrick: Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, now, let’s talk about who you look to serve. Tell me about Satori Capital’s appetite here, you know, profile of what target you’re looking for these days.

Sunny: Yeah, so a couple of things. One, you know, we talked about size, that sort of five to 50 million of EBITDA. Domestically focused. Again, we’re smart enough to know that we’re not smart enough to do business in, I don’t know the Isle of Man and Germany, for half the revenue. Ask me how I learned that. Please don’t.

So domestically focused. There are three cases that we see that are repeatable, where we can be a really good fit. And in no particular order. Classic consumer goods that their opportunity online and direct to consumer is still unlockable. So they sell through Nordstroms, or Target, or Dillards, or those kinds of things. They don’t really sell much on Amazon, and they don’t really sell much on their own website.

So the trick there is that transition is not a technological problem. It’s a cultural problem. Pacing and timing, when you sell through traditional channels into retail, your pacing and timing is quarterly and annually. When you sell direct to consumer, it’s daily and weekly, and in some parts of the year it’s hourly.

And so imagine I send an entire 18-wheeler full of stuff to Target, that’s your business. And now I’m sending a single thing to a single customer in Kalamazoo, Michigan. And if it doesn’t leave the dock today, they’re gonna be mad. It’s a different culture and mindset, it’s actually not a tech problem. It was a tech problem 20 years ago, that part’s not hard. Now, it’s the cultural challenge. Um, so that’s situation one.

Classic products with an e-commerce opportunity. Situation two are manufacturers that have a lot of intellectual property, or a lot of engineers running around. If you have 200 people, and 22 of them are engineers, you have a different business than if you have 200 people and two of them are engineers.

So we’re looking for places where there’s a lot of deep engineering work done for the customer before the product is made. Some cases where they actually have real intellectual property that is theirs be it patent or trade secret. We have a portfolio company, their core product costs a million dollars and takes a year to make. It’s hard. And it’s complicated.

We’re good at those businesses, we can be a great partner for those businesses. And then the last one, we colloquially refer to it as white truck business. It’s industrial and commercial services. And so this is quite commonly a worker in a literal white truck, work boots, performing some service on-site at a customer’s manufacturing plant or office building or what have you.

I walked past them today, I’m in a condo, our elevators broken, there’s a white truck sitting out front, a skilled technician that had to learn a lot of what he knows through apprenticeship. When you need that service, you need it now. And it has to be right. We’re exceedingly good at helping those companies grow and scale.

So those are the three core scenarios. And then occasionally, we find something that just deeply culturally aligned. We have a school that helps kids that are in the bottom 3% of their class get graduated out of high school.

Patrick: Wow.

Sunny: And it’s it’s big, and it has real scale. And it does it at this, you know, 1000s of students. And it’s just such an amazing business. You ask yourself, is the world better off if that business is 10 times the size? Like, absolutely, the stories coming out of it are heartwarming. And it’s a great business too. So occasionally, we’ll see things that don’t fit those three core intellectual property-driven manufacturing, consumer goods with an E-commerce entity, or these white truck businesses. And so those those come when they come.

Patrick: Satori Capital has been around since 2008. You’ve seen a lot of changes in the M&A industry. And one of them is the evolution of reps and warranties as a standard risk transfer tool in M&A. But, you know, don’t take my word for it. Sunny good, bad, or indifferent, what’s been your experience with rep and warranty insurance?

Sunny: So we were an early adopter of reps and warranty insurance. I’m a big fan. I can’t think of a time when we’ve closed an investment that we didn’t use reps and warranty insurance unless it was an add-on and it was just too small. Historically, you’ve needed a transaction of kind of sufficient size to do that.

So here’s the thing, very few people are talking about. Is there some transfer of risk and sort of financial math I can do on that? Yes, of course there is. And it’s valuable. What’s hard to price is the value of not having to argue with the seller. So until you’ve been through these, one of the things that happens late stage in a deal is there’s a bunch of disclosure schedules.

And I know it sounds like a bunch of legal stuff I’m going to talk about but y’all, this is your reality, you’re going to live in it, whether you’re a buyer or seller. You’ve got all these disclosures schedules going back and forth. And there’s all this argument about what a seller has to disclose in the documents.

And well, I want to knowledge qualifier, and lawyers are arguing, and there’s all this sort of friction. And you’re finding yourself, not at the beginning of a partnership, or at the consummation of a great transaction, arguing about stuff that some of it’s tier one, some of it’s not at all. It’s a bunch of friction. And what we, we didn’t buy it to get this when we first bought it, we bought it for the financial driver.

And then we got into it, and we realize, wait, we don’t have to argue about that stuff anymore. Because the big foundation is if it’s disclosed, it’s insured. So now everybody has the same incentives. And I like systems where everybody’s got the same incentive. The incentive is whatever’s going on, let’s just write it all down.

And so it took a part of the process that was like painful and kind of gross and just made it easy. And, practically, you just can’t think of everything, you can’t find everything. Sometimes you’ve got issues that are maybe issues that you don’t know, and the seller is like that’ll never happen, and the buyer is like that’s definitely happening. You don’t have to argue about it anymore. You bought insurance, you took your lick.

And now you can move on. And I’ll give you one other thing to think about. And this is true for both buyers and sellers. And I know I sound like an insurance sales guy, that’s not what I’m doing. I’m just telling you how we use it. Post-closing, something happens and the documents say, I should go back to my now partner in this transaction and say, hey, you owe me you know, $87.

And I don’t want to make that phone call. Like I don’t want to, even if the facts are just are what they are about, well, you had an undisclosed trashcan, and it costs this much to deal with the issue. It’s just not any fun, and it doesn’t create value for anybody. And so when instead I call them and go, hey, we gotta call the reps and warranty folks, and they’re gonna have to pay.

They’re like, okay, no sweat. And we move on. We’re trying to build a business together, we’re trying to do new stuff. So there’s all this post-closing friction. A lot of times sellers hate escrows, they just do. Sometimes unreasonably so because they feel like it’s not real. I’ve never seen an escrow get weird.

They kind of are what they are. But as a seller, you’re like, I don’t like it. And I want to keep it smaller. Oftentimes, in these transactions, the RWI will allow you to either get rid of the escrow or shrink it dramatically, which again, anything you can do to take out friction in a process or in a transaction is good for everybody.

Because there’s gonna be enough already, this stuff is hard. They’re hard to find. They’re hard to close, it’s tough on the sell side, it’s tough on the buy side, get the friction out of your thing. We found it to be reasonably priced. And the last question I would answer that you didn’t ask, but it’s an important one. Sometimes we buy insurance, but it’s not useful because you try to get paid under it and make a claim.

And they’re like, yeah, no, we’re not paying to see line 700 on our eight-hundred-line document. Our experience has been if you make a realistic and reasonable claim under RWI the insurers pay it in a timely fashion, which means it’s real insurance is not just silly. So anyway, I didn’t mean to go on that one. But I’m a big fan, and we use it on all of our transactions. So that’s as simple as that.

Patrick: I appreciate it. We let you run with those. And I think that the one fact that you pointed out is the leverage that policyholders have because organizations like Satori Capital, you guys are repeat buyers. This isn’t a one and done one transaction in a vacuum. And so the underwriters realize very prudently, that look, the number one way you can turn off private equity in these repeat buyers is dilly around with a claim.

Just move forward, pay the loss, and go on, because this is a very profitable line of insurance. And if we’ve got this process going, it just feeds on itself, and it’s a win-win for everybody. And I appreciate what you said, because the perspective here is, in the absence of insurance, there’s conflict, there’s agitation, there’s some adversarial winners and losers.

And so, with this, it’s all collaboration, which is at the core of what Satori Capital is. Is getting this collaboration, and getting all the stakeholders aligned. And we like that. The other thing that’s great is the new development in reps and warranties. There’s a new product out there that’s designed specifically for the add-ons.

These are transactions of $20 million enterprise value and down, and at a cost of $15,000 per million in limits, very, very affordable. It’s a fraction of what the traditional rep and warrant are, but it’s for smaller deals. These are simpler deals, they’re lower risks, and they should be easy to put together and inexpensive, and move quickly.

So now I’m very proud of the industry where we are adapting as more opportunities arise. So it’s great. Now Sunny, with us getting through mid-year in 2024, give us your perspective. What trends do you see out there, either macro or Satori Capital, and specific?

Sunny: Yeah, I would say, you know, one of the macros and this has been a slow burn, but continues to build momentum is more and more people, and in this case, owners are saying, hey, I actually care about more stuff than money. Like, the systems around me telling me, I should mostly care about money.

And I do care about all these other things, too, like my people on my team, my culture, my customers, and so forth. And so I’m happy to see that sort of consistent, relentless march forward. It’s not fast, but it’s absolutely happening. Because that’s consistent with the world I want to live in where people care about each other and try to do things that bring extraordinary outcomes for multiple parties.

So that’s one, but that’s sort of long arc of time. I think too people are seemingly getting more comfortable with this sort of new instability. The last couple of years have felt a bit unstable for lots of us. You know, I’ll not opine on the Fed’s job. That’s their issue. But it’s mine too because you don’t get a vote in what to do about it.

But I think that, you know, we had lived so long in the zero interest rate world, that we are having to readjust to, what if money is not free and I actually have to pay when I borrow. So that’s just getting a little adjustment, but I feel like that’s settling in.

So in general, the sort of tension in the room seems to be coming down a little bit on a lot of fronts. A lot of nervousness and worry about everything for two years. And people generally seem to be more comfortable with where the world is now. Geopolitical trauma notwithstanding.

Patrick: Well I think in the lower middle market, also, a lot of those big macro wins don’t affect the lower middle market as much. But I think that, as you say, if there’s a growing awareness of a bigger world out there other things other than money, sometimes money has been the problem or fear of money has been the problem.

When that gets removed, a lot of things open up. And I think we could be seeing some turns to the positive. So I mean, that’s fantastic. Sunny Vanderbeck from Satori Capital, first of all, could you tell us where can we find your book Selling Without Selling Out, and then also, how can our audience members find you?

Sunny: Yeah, so my book is available on Amazon. Hardcopy, Kindle, and audiobook, and in a fun turn of events actually did the narration for the audiobook myself. I had some CEO friends, and they were like, hey, this needs to be you, not somebody reading it on your behalf. So I built a little sound booth and did it myself.

So Amazon’s the easiest way to buy it. If you want to get a hold of me sunnyvanderbeck.com Again, sunnyvanderbeck.com I’ll point out that I also have some workbooks that are a companion piece to my book that will help you through the process of selling without selling out.

Patrick: Sunny Vanderbeck from Satori Capital, again, thanks so much. Great having you today.

Sunny: Happy to be here. Have a wonderful day.